Lila Futuransky ([info]heyiya) wrote,
@ 2007-05-01 08:46:00
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Entry tags:academia, analysis, fannish, lj, public

fandom, gender and knowledge
Kristina Busse has posted a great blog post on the gendered exclusions going on in media studies and fan studies, in response to the Media in Transition 5 conference. I wish I could have been at the conference!

Anyway, I think that her points are extremely important and far-reaching, and I think that everyone should go over there and read.

They are points I have been thinking about recently too, as I have been discussing fandom in a lot of different academic and quasi-academic contexts. The intersection of geeky, girly, queer (in multiple senses and sometimes problematically), uncool and un-self-aggrandizing just doesn't have the intellectual marketability of media convergence, the explosion of 'web 2.0,' and mainstreaming fan practices, I suppose. And the 'fangirls' flock and stay anonymous while the 'fanboys' publicize themselves furiously. But the historical and current practices affect each other, and it seems that the public, male-oriented history is being written without any understanding of the communities created largely by women. It's all there in Kristina's post.

I have regular panic attacks about the triviality of what I want to work on, over my desire to do my theorising around an archive of geekery that could bar me from being taken seriously in the academic world. But I continue to believe that it's important, intellectually and maybe even politically, that these overlooked texts, and these models of knowledge production, collaboration, mentorship, the interactions that happen there/here–– it all needs to be taken seriously and needs to be discussed beyond the communities that form around the texts and genres (much as I love those communities). And I don't just mean sf and media fanfiction, but meta arguments, the intersecting and overlapping spaces that have been created on LJ, the gender and sexual and racial politics of it all no matter how ugly or uncomfortable they get, even the wank. Some days I think especially the wank.

I got very little of my academic interests and intellectual passion from classes. I just recently realised that this is probably relatively unusual. I came to them from reading sf which turned me on to theory, from queer and feminist online communities that brought me into the relation I hold to identity politics, showed me more theory, taught me to think seriously and critically about race and gender and sexuality and capitalism and class; I got them from being sucked into LJ and fanfic and meta fandom and being encouraged to keep thinking and writing by people I met here.

I have certainly learned a lot from university and classes too, especially since I began my PhD. But I wouldn't have my PhD topic without what I learned outside the academy; I probably wouldn't be in my PhD program without it. And I maintain, fervently and stridently, that there needs to be more attention paid to the ways knowledge circulates outside academic contexts. I hear far too many people assuming that the only way you can learn anything is to take (and to pay for) a class in it. The internet is far from the only way to learn outside of an economy that commodifies and instrumentalises knowledge, of course; but it's the route that I have most often followed, and for those who have access it is probably one of the easiest to pursue.



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[info]heyiya
2007-05-01 04:33 pm UTC (link)
No problem! And yes, the more I think about that the more I think you are right. It's the same old dichotomy between public engagement and private comfort/freedom, isn't it...

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[info]ithiliana
2007-05-01 06:40 pm UTC (link)
I just commented below to main post: there are LOTS of open comms and posts and stuff on LJ that is fannish, and aca-fan--but that isn't "seen" either, is it?

So let's not just "blame" ourselves for flocking everything down--because there's a huge amount there.

Don't they just ignore LJ?

I will post on your post I promise, but have to have time/energy to put toether a more public post I can do under my own name...

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[info]ninja_turbo
2007-05-01 07:10 pm UTC (link)
I know from my own attempts at beginning to investigate various internet communities, there's a big barrier to entry based on the vast stores of information being thrown around within the various knowledge communities. It's as hard to break into an LJ/online fan community to learn as any other ethnographic investigation, and not only do many scholars not have a background in ethnographic research methodology, there isn't really a wide-spread push in academia to look at LJ and other communities as a source of knowledge on par with University Press and peer-reviewed journals. Which is silly.

From what I've seen, online ethnography is still relatively knew, and is several steps ahead/apart from the "go to foreign country and immerse yourself totally for 6+ months" model of anthropology/folklore/other ethnography. First we had the "ethnography within your own group" move, and we're still working on the "digital ethnography" move.

This does not exonerate such scholars who don't spend the time to enter online knowledge communities, but it may give us more understanding which we can then use to work on finding ways to bring more people into those communities for transmission/exchange of knowledge. FAQs, intros, and the same kind of "new member orientation" elements, but with a "for interested scholars" angle -- though ideally, new member orientation would be sufficient info/intro for anyone.

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[info]heyiya
2007-05-01 08:33 pm UTC (link)
there isn't really a wide-spread push in academia to look at LJ and other communities as a source of knowledge on par with University Press and peer-reviewed journals
Two LJ/aca friends (not sure if I should name them in a public post!) and I co-wrote a paper (well, co-edited; it was a meta-fannish roundtable) that tried to do this on the subject of slash fandom as queer female space. We don't know yet whether it's been accepted.

I don't know anything about ethnography as a methodology, really; as that isn't my training, I am interested in how these communities can be written about within different disciplinary settings. I know what you mean about the difficulty of entry; but at the same time, what we are talking about is *blog entries*, and while some might use community jargon and terminology, there are a great many that are fully comprehensible to an outside audience.

Not everyone thinks that wider distribution of fannish community discussions is a good idea, of course. I am not even entirely sure that I do! I want them to be respected but I don't want them to be diluted, to be taken out of context (even as I am arguing that there can be value to taking them out of context...) or for the very real concerns of community members to be ignored. Yeah. It's complicated. (and if you want to read more about it, I think that Busse has some pretty great entries up on her blog; entries that, in their original LJ publication, were a living part of the fannish discourse we are talking about. And I at least think they're totally accessible).

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[info]alias_sqbr
2007-05-04 10:56 am UTC (link)
*browses in from [info]metafandom*

That's really interesting, it had never occured to me to think of studying the internet as being like anthropology of another culture. Hmm.

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[info]ninja_turbo
2007-05-04 03:18 pm UTC (link)
I feel like I'd apply my ethnographic training when I was going into any community for research purposes. Learning the language of the group, the norms and social expectations are all basic steps that have to be taken before a researcher can begin to research any specific area. Studying the Whole Internet would be a gargantuan task, but as the internet contains a multiplicity of communities, I might as well bring my 'how to study a community' training when I do it.

My friends [info]swan_tower and [info]kitsune_zen did a presentation at ICFA a few years back on anthropological ethnography for studying fan communities -- people ate it up. I think it's a good model that can be applied to many different angles of research.

Studying digital culture isn't something that's widely accepted in my field (Folklore), which is part of why I'm taking my training and going somewhere else with it.

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[info]alias_sqbr
2007-05-08 10:46 am UTC (link)
My experiences of academia have made me aware of how rare, and thus vital, it is for people to look beyond the well worn paths of their own speciality and apply their knowledge to other areas.

So go you :) (I had a rather more complex reply, but it kept coming out incoherent. I think being metafandomed sapped my ability to reply to comments)

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[info]fandrogyny
2007-05-01 04:56 pm UTC (link)
I think that this sentiment will become more and more important as time goes on. Reading this post gives me a lot of inspiration and hope, because I have yet to reach the point that you have -- I need to be in a Ph.D. programme, but haven't made it there yet.

I learnt academic feminism from university. I learnt feminism on the ground from LJ.

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[info]heyiya
2007-05-01 05:03 pm UTC (link)
I hope that it does become more important. And I'm glad to give you inspiration! :)

I don't know what field you would be looking to apply to, but I would be happy to talk to you about PhDs – not that I necessarily know all that much about the options and processes, but I'm certainly happy to share the knowledge I have!

I learnt academic feminism from university. I learnt feminism on the ground from LJ.
Yes. Well, more or less: there has been a lot of crossover for me, between academia and RL and online life, such that I can often barely remember where I learned one thing or came to another identification any more. I often feel that I am very geekily isolated, always in my head and theorising and not out there 'on the ground' being activistly political; but at the same time, I do believe that online practice can do 'real' things, because I know that the people and the interactions I have had here have been real and have had serious, significant effects.

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[info]heyiya
2007-05-01 05:06 pm UTC (link)
(Um, I mean the people I have *met*, not the people I have had...!)

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[info]ecila_etc
2007-05-01 05:23 pm UTC (link)
That's what we've been saying in science studies for years...

(though, about science, it's easier to criticise that end of the academy, people aren't so ready to be so critical about humanities)

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[info]heyiya
2007-05-01 05:28 pm UTC (link)
It seems like one of the biggest problems with these conversations is that people *have* been saying the same things for years, and nobody listens! Or they listen and nod politely and go right on doing the same thing... or maybe they even try really hard to change stuff (which seems to be what happened with the organisers of the MiT conference) but habit and non-analysis won out.

I feel like people are very ready to be critical of the humanities – but in all the wrong ways! Thinking of those 'let's mock theory' articles and blog posts that never stop and think about what theory might be trying to say and to do to make them question their assumptions...

Sigh. *puts optimistic hat on* We will change the academic world! ;)

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[info]ecila_etc
2007-05-01 05:58 pm UTC (link)
Richards, Eileen (1996) (Un)Boxing the Monster*, Social Studies of Science, Vol. 26, No. 2, pp.323-356.

Do you think it's a good or a bad sign that as I type this I'm home-baking biscuits for a paper I'm giving tomorrow? (they are gingerbread-dinosaurs, as a theme of the paper is not-very-scary-monsters**)

* monsters in a haraway-ish sense
** not monsters in the haraway sense

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[info]heyiya
2007-05-01 06:05 pm UTC (link)
I think it means that you have the challenge to gender norms in feminist academia *down*!

There should be more intellectually themed biscuits at paper presentations. Many many more.

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[info]alphabetzoo
2007-05-01 05:25 pm UTC (link)
Indeed - and in certain countries (the UK being a prime example because of the RAE but it may be true in the US in certain disciplines) academia is promoting 'safe' research to get funding. Blue-sky and innovative research is being squeezed out.

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[info]heyiya
2007-05-01 05:33 pm UTC (link)
In the US it seems to vary hugely by university and be utterly reliant on the academic 'star' system, at least in the humanities. With the right CV and the right name you can be as innovative as you want, as long as you do it in the appropriate way... ie, you can't really be all that innovative. But I like to hope there is some wiggle room for doing the work one cares about and trying to slightly subvert the system...

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[info]ninja_turbo
2007-05-01 05:34 pm UTC (link)
While it's disappointing to hear about the division and overshadowing that went on at MiT, from my experience at ICFA, where the fan studies panels are almost exclusively women, said panels are also very well-attended (though to conceed to Kristina's point, it is usually the same crowd).

With ICFA it is of course important to note that there are different divisions and those divisions tend to have their own followings. But with the new Community and Culture division in place, I think there's more official recognition of the scholarship going on at least within ICFA. I'm not yet well-versed enough in overall fan studies to get a big picture assessment.

It is scary to be working in geek studies without knowing whether there will be jobs in 5 years or so. But in lieu of getting a "real" subject area and having geekdom as a secondary research interest, all I can think of is to be the most awesome geek studies scholar I can be.

To address another point, I think that you're totally on the ball with valuing knowledge systems/communities outside of academia. We have lots of institutional support and a mandate for knowledge-making, but there's a disconnect between academic knowledge and knowledge of the greater community. As much as we fine-tune conceptions of identity politics and gender vs. sex, if the ideas aren't present in the non-academic community, all we're really doing is laying the groundwork and hope that in 20 years, the next generation will absorb the ideas. Wheras grassroots/folk scholar communities are already directly plugged in to the communities, and it could be argued that the knowledge gets re-integrated more rapidly.

So if we go advocacy-style and work with these knowledge communities, sharing what they've discovered with what the academic communities have come up with, hope that ideas go both ways in a useful manner, then maybe we're going somewhere. At least, that's the model for my thesis, taking ideas about aesthetics and the formal structure of games from gamers and bringing it to the academy, rather than doing a top-down assessment of "this is what the gamers think."

This also reminds me that I'd love to do ethnographic work with pro/semi-pro writing communities in the spec fic world. Sure these folks already have a more "officially" recognized voice than many fan-ficcers, due to the public/private divide you mention and is likely tied up with the dubious legal status of fanfic, but I've not seen much in the way of that kind of ethnographic analysis of writing groups. I'm tempted to start with Clarion West, or at least test the waters of possibility.

Well, that's enough rambling for one comment. :)

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[info]heyiya
2007-05-01 05:51 pm UTC (link)
in lieu of getting a "real" subject area and having geekdom as a secondary research interest, all I can think of is to be the most awesome geek studies scholar I can be
Yes, this is my general plan of action too (the more detailed parts of it you know, and I won't lay 'em out in a public post :) ). Of course I also locate myself in queer cultural studies, not that this is necessarily much use as a 'real' subject area! But perhaps a better one than sf/f/fandom, at least judging by the comments of many people at ICFA.

As much as we fine-tune conceptions of identity politics and gender vs. sex, if the ideas aren't present in the non-academic community, all we're really doing is laying the groundwork
I think that many identity-politics-based discussions around queerness, gender, race etc do come from and feed directly back into community cultural and activist practices; I think that it is already happening, and I think that the lag is actually on the academic side a lot of the time. But I agree with your model, with the importance of an exchange that goes multiple ways, that there needs to be a constant dialectic between academic/institutional and other ways of knowing, intellectual or practical or whatever else.

I don't recall ever having seen that kind of ethnographic analysis, though Delany rather prefigures it in About Writing and his analysis of the writer's conference in Times Square Red. It sounds very interesting! :)

(I have just realised that I need an icon that says 'geek.' Must so something about that.)

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[info]ninja_turbo
2007-05-01 06:05 pm UTC (link)
Queer cultural studies, while nowhere near mainstream is still popular/hip enough to provide some good opportunities. I'm still trying to figure out how to contextualize my Everything Geeky and the Tango Kitchen Sink interests in a way that gives me multiple angles of sale-ability for job placement. I could go the communications/media culture angle, which might be the 'safest.' Still haven't decided on that, and don't need to for at least a few more months.

I think you're totally right on the queer/gender/race theories coming out of community activism, though it's funny to see how the lag times are really different with different disciplines. Why is much of folkloristics stuck in models from the 70s and 80s? [info]prosewitch undoubtedly has a better answer for it than I do, but the lukewarm reception some of my work has gotten in the discipline was more than enough to make me realize I needed to find another venue. The "without guarantees" part of the utopian vision of interdisciplinarity (If I can yoink and re-arrange your freshly-minted term) is that in the field of going back and forth and roving around picking theory willy-nilly, you still need someplace to sleep at night, so to speak.

I'm excited to hear that Delany speaks about the ethnographic bits, since I just started reading About Writing last night.

As for geek icons, that's what this one is for. :)

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[info]heyiya
2007-05-01 06:11 pm UTC (link)
The "without guarantees" part of the utopian vision of interdisciplinarity (If I can yoink and re-arrange your freshly-minted term) is that in the field of going back and forth and roving around picking theory willy-nilly, you still need someplace to sleep at night,
Oh, yes... I have so far made my bed in English, but I wonder more and more if it might be better placed in communications/media. I guess there's a lot of overlap, and a lot of baseline media scholarship I don't know, and remain addicted to books and analyses of the written word, so I feel like I can stick here for now. With my 'hip' queer and new media edges and my tragically uncool sf/fandom and my continual 'hmm, I really ought to write a paper on something that's, like, canonical'...

English also has the advantage of being one of the places where cutting-edge theory is readily taken up and used, even if there are some who despise that and even though it is still an intensely problematic discipline in many ways.

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[info]roadriverrail
2007-05-01 05:37 pm UTC (link)
Almost none of my intellectual passion and interest comes from my PhD program and almost none of it returns to my PhD program. Something I didn't know when I entered the academy is that, as far as academic research is concerned, my favorite topic (operating systems) has been considered to be "closed". I pretty much limp along in my research.

That said, I have learned so much from grad school and in such an integrated and concentrated fashion that I literally left school a different person. I entered a computer programmer and I left a computer scientist. The former knows how to make software, but the latter knows things like how languages work, why certain things are virtually impossible to compute, and how to tackle huge, previously undiscovered, questions. It's the difference between knowing how to work with a computer and knowing what a computer really does.

There are so many places outside of school to learn this. You could order the books I used off of Amazon. You can find it on websites. If you fell in the right company, you'd pick up a lot of this as you'd go. But getting the theory, integrated, in a single package is a value unto its own, at least in a field where mathematics, linguistics, and electrical engineering all simultaneously collide. There are a good many autodidacts out there, yes, but relatively few of them that I've met had the level of theoretical integration that let them jump into and contribute to any given topic. Speaking as someone who spent two years being an autodidact before grad school, self-learning is often very focused on specific, topical needs, and generally goes only as deep as necessary at any given time.

That said, being out in industry, I use close to none of my theoretical training and rely instead on my more practical, self-taught skills.

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[info]heyiya
2007-05-01 06:04 pm UTC (link)
I'm sorry that your research can't be your passion! :(

getting the theory, integrated, in a single package is a value unto its own
So the intensity of a (graduate) school experience is something that can't always be replicated outside of the academic world? I think you may have a point there––it's why I feel so privileged and am so overjoyed to be in a funded PhD program––but I do think it depends on where one goes to school, who one works with, etc. This may be less true in the sciences (in fact, I am almost sure that it is less true in the sciences) but I have certainly found myself having experiences of comparable intensity in online conversations.

Learning from people as well as from books outside an institutional setting *can* (though certainly it does not always) take one on unexpected journeys of deep theorising and life-changing learning just as grad school can. It probably can't ever be as comprehensive, and it probably works a lot better for the kind of learning that involves thinking about people and society and texts and ideology than it does for the kind of learning that involves maths and code and equations. But it can and does happen, all the same.

Maybe what can't happen so easily, at least in the online context, is the kind of learning that *forces* you to think differently about the way you approach the world: what [info]cathexys called 'crisis learning' in a recent flocked post. Because it's so easy to just abandon an online discussion or to ignore what you're being told, as we saw in a certain heated debate in a mutual friend's journal relatively recently! But I'm not even sure that is true, which is one reason I highlighted the importance of 'wank' in my post.

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[info]roadriverrail
2007-05-01 08:10 pm UTC (link)
To make my position clear, I am an unfunded student and I have a job developing cellular phones in order to make enough money to cover my tuition. I basically split as soon as my core classes were done, as I had no hope of funding on the horizon and I felt I'd put myself and my fiance through enough social isolation and "voluntary poverty", so I got a job and now try to do my research in nights and sometimes weekends.

So the intensity of a (graduate) school experience is something that can't always be replicated outside of the academic world?

I wouldn't say that, but I would say that there's value added. And it's not necessary the intensity so much as the integration of topics I could otherwise choose to avoid. If I'd self-taught, I'd probably be much more focused on operating systems and picked up very little of the computational linguistics. As a result, I'd have missed the fundamental math of computing. Granted, I don't need Cantor's Method of Diagonalization out in the real world, but knowing how to prove there are more irrational numbers than rational (when both are also infinite sets) is very useful, and knowing how this relates to uncomputable problems, and how THAT relates to language processing...let's just say it provides a much deeper understanding of computing.

I do think it depends on where one goes to school, who one works with, etc. This may be less true in the sciences (in fact, I am almost sure that it is less true in the sciences)

I don't think it's less true in the sciences. Again, in my personal example, I probably picked the worst school for me-- The University of Florida. I didn't know how to size it up as a research institution, and I didn't know our chairperson was very conservative and preferred that the department focus on computer science questions that were en vogue back in the 1970s but that are now considered by most to be like pondering the number of angels that can dance on a pin.

As a result, the iconoclasts in the department never had a home, and they've since taken their innovative research to other schools.

Maybe what can't happen so easily, at least in the online context, is the kind of learning that *forces* you to think differently about the way you approach the world: what cathexys called 'crisis learning' in a recent flocked post.

"Crisis learning" is precisely the sort of thing I'm talking about. Again, if I had been allowed to go to grad school the way I'd learn without it, I'd have packed in all my hours on operating systems and related topics and avoided algorithms and theory. Being compelled to take a certain amount of algorithms and theory, however, ensured that I had better foundations of thinking, and I'm grateful I took them now, because I can tell the difference in my abilities. Computer science might be unique, but it's a broad enough field that you can pick only things you find unchallenging, do them, and look brilliant while you do...but all the while you don't really know what you're doing. Larry Wall, inventer of the PERL programming language, is a perfect example...he created one of the most popular programming languages, and has repeatedly admitted that the language looks funny because he doesn't know anything about languages.

It's interesting the differences in the fields and how this can affect things. [info]nancyblue, my partner, is a folklorist and anthropologist. I'm working on my PhD in computer science. Everything I'm taught is about being able to either mathematically prove something or about engineering something and rigorously proving that it works as you say. Much of what she does is about rigorously forming a position on a topic. The requirements for learning to do these two things, both considered "intellectual", are incredibly different. (Note I'm not saying one is better or more difficult...just that the fields are mutually foreign.)

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[info]ithiliana
2007-05-01 06:38 pm UTC (link)
Am rushing for grading and grade appeals meeting (another department, I'm chairing committee), but you know: I was reading this, and thinking about the issue of flock.

There's a *shit*load of stuff out there in LJ land by us and others all open and free to see, not flocked (yes, we flock some stuff, but...)....and they are ignoring it (nothing in Henry's latest book or on his blog about LJ).

So it's not that we flock everything down--well OK some people do in their own journals--but just as I now have a LJ under my real life academic name, nothing keeping people from having a professional LJ as well as fannish one?--but still, lots out there.

And it's ignored.

Because, hey it's got cooties????

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[info]heyiya
2007-05-01 08:42 pm UTC (link)
Henry does have an *occasional* mention of LJ...

It isn't that I object necessarily to the idea that different blogging software is appropriate for different purposes; I can see why one might want Blogger's capabilities sometimes (well, maybe...). But the way that everybody talks about "the blogosphere" and doesn't seem to realize that there are many blogospheres, the way people are so amazed by blog comment conversations and don't know about the intensely m

I mean, look how many comments Kristina's entry has already, after going up today. Jenkins's went has been up for more than twice as long, has a vastly greater readership, was a post that expressly asked for comments from readers, and still has half as many (and they're far less detailed, they aren't in conversation with each other much, they're shorter). I'm sure there are external reasons (maybe people aren't back from the conference yet to comment to HJ, maybe they're catching up on work) but still. Says a lot about the two models of communication and community, no?

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